Empowering People and Organizations for Greater Success with Roland Lemke AIA, LEED AP

Join host Joe Walker on this episode of "Design for an Agile World" as he sits down with Roland Lemke AIA, LEED AP, Principal at CannonDesign - an architectural firm on a mission to make a positive impact on people, business, society, and the planet. 

 In this conversation, Roland discusses letting go of preconceptions in design and focusing on creating buildings that speak to the unique culture and story of every client we serve. 

 Listeners will hear about the evolution of Roland’s perception of architecture, the impact of buildings on people, and the significance of an agile mindset in design. They also talk about the importance of mentoring the next generation of architects and giving space for people to thrive, so that organizations as a whole can go bigger and do better. 

Highlights:

0:02:13 A Conversation on Architecture and Design Thinking

 0:04:12 Designing for Better People, Business, Society, and the Planet

 0:08:05 The Importance of an Agile Mindset in Designing for Clients

 0:11:34 Cultivating Talent and Building Successful Design Solutions

 0:17:19 Mindset of a Design Professional

 0:21:54 The Importance of Design and Expertise in Architecture Projects

 0:23:48 Designing a Building Rooted in User Needs

 0:27:29 Designing a Flexible Building to Accommodate Future Changes

 Connect with Roland Lemke, AIA, LEED AP

Everything can be viewed as a design problem. Whether you’re engaging with a client team, building internal teams or strategizing a new opportunity, the optimal solution will likely be discovered through the design-thinking process. That’s Roland’s approach as a design principal and the leader of our D.C. office.

Roland joined CannonDesign 23 years ago, bringing a budding passion for student life. With expertise spanning athletic facilities, recreation centers, student unions and wellness hubs, Roland is an expert at designing spaces driven by programming. He has a passion for collaborating with clients to understand their needs and design drivers, then building a physical space that prioritizes functionality and looks great from the outside in and the inside out. Leveraging his knowledge of designing spaces integral to the student experience, Roland challenges his teams to be strong partners to clients eager to shape the campus of the future.

 LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/roland-lemke-3119057 

 CannonDesign: https://www.cannondesign.com/

Connect with Joe Walker

Walker Architects: https://walker-arch.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/walker-arch

Transcript

[00:00:00] Joe Walker: Hello. Welcome to Design for an Agile World, a podcast about agile design, brought to you by Walker Architects. I'm your host, Joe Walker, and over the past several years, my team and I at Walker have developed an agile design methodology that prioritizes people first. Our process enables all stakeholders from the boardroom to the classroom to be heard and represented in the final design solution.

Overall, our approach has proven to make the whole process of design more inclusive, efficient, and frankly fun. I hope to share some of those stories with you through this podcast as we aim to make the world a more agile place. 

Welcome to this episode of Design for an Agile World podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Roland Lemke.

He's the Principal at CannonDesign, an architectural powerhouse that's on a mission to help organizations go bigger and do better for people, for business, for society, and the planet. 

So, that's pretty exciting. I can really get behind that whole mindset, and I'm really excited to talk to you about that today, Roland.

[00:01:07] Roland Lemke: Great. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:09] Joe Walker: Yeah, absolutely. So maybe you can tell us about what got you to that mission in general. What was the thinking that led you there? 

[00:01:17] Roland Lemke: It was actually pretty cool. So, we were very fortunate enough to get a new CEO about eight years ago, who's actually somebody that Joe knows from his days at the University of Florida.

After his first five years, he had set up a framework for his first five years. It was time to do version two. And what we did was really cool in that the leadership of the firm actually went to every office in the entire firm and held workshops and sessions with as many people that were willing to come in and literally come up with a thousand different things that people said.

And then when you distilled it down and you looked at it and you brought things together, it really did start to focus on those things that you mentioned, Joe, and really like, how do we help people? How do we be active in the places that we have offices?

You know, how do we push the boundaries? How do we really focus on really helping our clients get to that next level? 

[00:02:10] Joe Walker: That's pretty awesome. And actually that line of thinking kind of ties back into how you and I even first met. It was a connection through Brad, of course, who's your CEO and knowing each other.

But, it was really a common project. We were chasing some work at the University of Florida that we got to share, and I can see some of that design thinking that really showed up in that project and other projects that we've worked on together. So maybe if we go back to the beginning, we can see what set you on that path and maybe share some of your background.

Not only just when we came to know each other, but even prior to that, just your journey and architecture and what drew you to the profession and how that kind of thinking is fun for you now. 

[00:03:03] Roland Lemke: Yeah. Sadly, it's going to be probably the corny thing that a lot of architects say. Where you know, I grew up in a pretty small town in Oklahoma.

Right. So, I think that when I went to Oklahoma State University, and I think what I thought an architect was absolutely not what I've been doing. Right. We all thought it was about drawing and about more about the construction side, you know, and actually helping build and all those kinds of things.

And quickly in architecture school, and I think probably very similar to the University of Florida. You realize it's about creating space and creating forum and mass and something that makes wherever that building is better. So that was what got me going and then I got the opportunity to come out to the East Coast and in turn, my first internship was with Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, you know, back in the day, which is still a very well respected firm. Had a great experience there, which then led me to ultimately, you know, about 10 years later to CannonDesign, and it was that opportunity to actually take an office that was a little bit sleepy, needed to wake up.

And so, myself and a couple of other new people really helped set it on a new path. So, I think that's really been what got me into designing more in the higher education world. And so, for about, I've been with Canada now 24 years, or just over. And so yeah, I really started focusing on recreation centers, student unions, student life buildings, which I really enjoy.

It's so much fun designing. A building that has a purpose and a program and all of those kinds of things versus generic buildings. So yeah, that's which is what led me then to ultimately be able to complete, you know, and worked on, I don’t know at this point, maybe 20 different student unions across the country and the rights of student unions.

Probably still one of my top two, if not number one. 

[00:04:40] Joe Walker: That's awesome. Yeah. So, when you were describing that history, there was a couple of pretty significant shifts in the way that you were thinking that led you to where you are today. And I know our work together is a culmination of over all of these experiences and even putting it through the lens of designing, you know, for better people, business, society, and the planet.

Right. And if I'm looking back on those shifts, maybe if you could tell us a little bit about, was there a particular moment where you said, I don't want to do that anymore and now I want to focus on this? Or was it more of an evolution of, hey, these opportunities or these project types came up and they were fun, and I wanted to do X?

[00:05:44] Roland Lemke: No, I think it's probably a little bit more of that where I don't know. How's the best way to put this? You know, you can't become an expert in something without having done a few, right? And you've had some failures, you've had some successes, and then once you start figuring out what makes it successful, right? Then you want to build upon that because you get excited about that, right? 

So right about the time we won the Reitz Union together, we were also doing the student union for the University of the District of Columbia, which is right on Connecticut Avenue, right across the street from Intel, a very prominent site.  It's actually in a book now of places you should go see in Washington D.C. which is cool.

So, you know, when you start getting the design buildings that are like that and that people recognize and, you know, anybody who went to the University of Florida knows the Reitz Union and it's just so popular. Right. And all sorts of social media and everything else. It makes you want to do more of those, you know, and at the same time, I was doing similarly with kind of student rec centers doing the same thing, doing very fun, very designed forward thinking about wellness and wellbeing and how the student rec center can help students overall kind of health and mental health.

So yeah, to me that's what it's about is, you know, how do these buildings actually impact the users? 

[00:06:40] Joe Walker: For sure. Yeah. And even looking back. It's been over 10 years since we've finished the Reitz Union, and that project, I still walk in today and it still feels fresh. It still feels very active and a place that students want to be really 24/7. 

So, I'm looking at that design thinking of. Really, that was a breakthrough moment for us as a firm, as we were paired up with you guys and your design thinking of what a project really can be, and it's really. continued on that other work that we've done together, like the student healthcare center right and right, and how that's come together. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on really an agile mindset, and what that really means to you. Because I know we've had conversations, like from a logistics and structural and physically solving the problem. There’s a level of agility, but then there's how you interact with the client, and how you're looking towards results of people being in this space that we create and bringing an agile mindset to that. So, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about those. 

[00:07:50] Roland Lemke: No, that's a really great point, Joe, because I think the trap that you can fall into, when you've done a few of these, right, is they all become the same recipe, right?

And you basically well, I put this next to this because, you know, it's gotta be next to that. And I think part of having an agile mindset is sometimes you gotta let go of the preconceptions and really, look at the drivers, you know, and usually for us it's the drivers from the client.

You know, we don't approach design with a set design aesthetic. Again, trying not to approach it where this “thing A” always has to be next to “thing B”. You know, what's the thing that's really gonna make this client excited and drive their mission? Because you remember we got quite a few major challenges from UF on the Reitz Union.

You know, how do we make it timeless? How do we engage 50,000 students? How do we, you know, make this uniquely the University of Florida? It would not feel in place at all at another university, right? And I think we hit a home run on all three. And that was because we did have to think differently and think about how to put all these parts and pieces together in a different way that really met those challenges.

So again, I remember, and maybe, I don't know, if you were like this, you know, in school you would come up with an idea and you would beat it to death. And you keep beating it, you know, even when it really wasn't heading in the right direction, right? And many years ago, I finally got to where I could actually bring myself back. You know, step out and try to look from above, like what isn't really working here? Once you can do that and put that lens on it, it allows you then to try to see through those things that you're doing that you need to change it. You need to go in a different direction. So, I think it's just being willing to do that.

[00:09:30] Joe Walker: Yeah, I think a couple things that you said in there jumped out to me. It's like designing almost for the culture of the University of Florida or for the other student union projects that you've done. They all have a unique culture, and you have to be open to hearing that. And learning what is making that culture tick. And then be able to come up with design solutions that really reinforce that culture. 

[00:09:57] Roland Lemke: Exactly. Like I said, if you're coming in with a set of preconceived notions that I want it to be this I don't think it’s, at least for me, it's not right. Right? Every building had a reason why. You know, again, I mentioned UDC earlier.

You know, this was the first new building they had built in 35 years. So, they really, and it's right on Connecticut Avenue. They wanted it to transform the image of the university when people drove by. Otherwise, people had been just driving by these old concrete buildings for, you know, 40 or 50 years.

So how does this new building create a new identity for the university? So, that was a big focus for them. So, you know, every project has a story, and it's really trying to find that story and then express it in the architecture. 

[00:10:38] Joe Walker: Yeah, for sure. And when we're talking about this agile mindset, it's really about removing self from that a little bit, right? Like your talent can guide a project to success, but it's successful when you look through the lens of everybody else that's gonna be using the facility up and down the chain. Right? And that's a big part of the skill that we've been honing in our office. And I'm wondering, does that resonate with you and what are your impressions of that?

[00:11:10] Roland Lemke: Yeah, I think that I always am trying to teach our next generation, again, I guess technically now I'm really trying to focus on, you know, like who's adjacent to me that really needs to step forward, right? And how I help them step forward. So that's making me have to be, I'd say, personally, more agile to step back.

Let people come forward, let people succeed, let people fail. Nudge. They call it putting bumpers or guardrails on, right? So, I'm there. Try to provide the guardrails so that, you know, to help protect somewhat, to really build and grow the next generation. You have to again, be agile to be able to, because not everybody's the same.

What motivates one designer or one project architect or project manager may absolutely not motivate another one. So, you have to basically, understand each person's strengths and weaknesses and you know, adjust your approach.  

[00:12:03] Joe Walker: Yeah. And you know, that's part of the process of design that's pretty exciting.

Like when I'm looking at this through two lenses, whether that's the built environment or the process of getting the best performance out of our folks. I love what you just said, like putting the guardrails up because you need to have people feel engaged, and like they're making a difference and not just being told what to do.

[00:12:24] Roland Lemke: Yeah. 

[00:12:25] Joe Walker: To get their best work. Right? 

[00:12:26] Roland Lemke: Yeah. 

[00:12:26] Joe Walker: Because you're hiring these folks for a reason and you need to give them the space to make a few mistakes and to try out some ideas and have the courage to share some of those ideas, and not always be so boxed in on this is how we're solving the problem.

Yeah. So maybe you can tell me more about how you amp that up in the culture of CannonDesign. 

[00:12:48] Roland Lemke: So, I'd say, you know, again, every kind of person in my position across the firm probably does it slightly differently. But, I think it's something I talk about a lot is like giving people ownership. Right. If they have ownership, and they're excited about what they're doing, then they're going to really want to go above and beyond. Right. Like you were just saying, like they just feel like they're picking up red lines and, oh, I'm doing the same thing again today. You know, that's no fun.

But if you make the task that they're doing, whether it be a, you know, really fun design task or figuring out a problem, something that they have ownership on and have responsibility for, and like you said, they succeed, they fail. You put up the guardrails. So, that's what I try to do and I try to do it by, you know, leading by example.

I say, you know, anything they do, I would be willing to do myself. Now granted I can't do Revit, but, you know, it's like otherwise, but I'm just saying if, you know, I'm willing to do the things that I can do so that they see that it's, you know, it is a team effort, and they have ownership of it, and I'm supporting them.

So, it's not just about doing what I want. And, you know, and I guess the other rule I've always used, maybe this one's not as fun as the 75% rule. You know, there's a task or design task at hand and you set somebody on the path to working on it. And I, you know, learned very early on, you have to have the right expectations.

You know, you've given them ownership, they're gonna do it, and it may not come back exactly the way you would've liked. Right. But right. Is it still good? Is it maybe better and letting people. Say, okay, you know, again, here's some guardrails here. Maybe you think about this, or maybe you think about that. But then letting them have authorship with that versus saying, I'm just always having to bend it to my will, because that's, I just don't think that's gonna build, you know, a great designer and somebody else starts to develop the skill sets to develop people after them.

[00:14:34] Joe Walker: I just love that whole approach because you're really putting a lot of energy in your team and trusting your team, which ultimately is going to get. Well, it's always hard, right? People are hard. It's okay. Yeah. But when we look at the actual result of all that work of allowing people to think freely and put their best ideas forward, we ultimately build something.

We ultimately come to a design solution. It gets constructed. People move in. People start using it. So, maybe talk about how that mindset of cultivating your talent internally has yielded results for the clients that choose to hire you guys. 

[00:15:16] Roland Lemke: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think. You've met a few of the people on our team, right?

You've met Ritz and Aaron, and I think you might've met Carrie. You met David. You know, Jim is still around. And you know, I think again, by allowing them to actually, like I said, realizing I don't have to be there all the time. I don't have to be the center of attention. I think it, you know, it lets them grow, which allows them to again, be able to take on something more complex.

Take on something more challenging versus stifling them throughout their early careers. So, I think that we really try to focus on that mentoring the next generation. I think, you know, Ritz is a good example of, we recently had an interview, you know, this past Friday, and I really stepped back.

I did not talk about the design at all. I was the Principal in charge, boring person. Right. He stood up and did the design part, and you have to let people get to that point because I don't wanna be here forever. When the time is right, having fun. And know that the office and the firm is in good hands.

[00:16:23] Joe Walker: Definitely. Yeah. So, I'm looking back at your mission, right? To help organizations go bigger and do better. And I'm thinking as you're describing all that, how it applies to your internal development of your own folks, not just the product that you create. But you're taking this mindset that, of course, will lead to a wonderful product, but it's letting your organization go bigger and do better.

[00:16:47] Roland Lemke: Right. Yeah. And you have to get out of people's way to allow that. Right. Like I said earlier, you know, getting in my upper 50s, and hopefully I'm doing this somewhere into my mid 60s. So, yeah, I have less than 10 years to be comfortable saying, you know, look you've got this. You don't need me anymore.

You know. You can go have fun. They can go have fun. They get to have all the problems and all the worries and all that. 

[00:17:09] Joe Walker: Well, all true. Yeah. Well, you actually now have the advantage of a little bit of hindsight, right? And you got to develop these ideas and test them and actually get them built. And I'm wondering, as you look back, how do you see that design mindset really affecting the educational projects that you've had the privilege of being involved in?

[00:17:33] Roland Lemke: Again, you're right. After having now worked in the higher education world, you know, for over 25 years, yeah, there's a lot of hindsight there, right? Things you would've done differently, things you wanna do better, things that you've wanted to try that just hasn't had the right moment. So, I think that it is, it's like it's taking 25 years of, like you said, successes and mistakes and always trying to then channel that into that next better thing versus just rubber stamping, you know. Well, I did it like this over there, or then do it like this over here. Right? That's no fun. And that's, again, that's what I love about higher ed is that doesn't really happen.

Every campus has different architecture context. Every campus has, of course, different users. Students are different. Hilly. Flat. There's so many different factors. So, you have to again, be agile in your thinking to fit that program within that new context. So, yeah. 

[00:19:20] Joe Walker: And as you take that whole mindset, how does that really affect the client experience as far as what does that process look like? How has it maybe changed over the years and where do you see it going? 

[00:19:34] Roland Lemke: Typically, we battle this as a firm. Are we an expertise driven firm or a design-driven firm, right? But, I think we'd like to be a design-driven firm that just so happens to have some really good expertise, right?

And I don't think we're always successful in that. So, I think sometimes expertise side comes out a little stronger, and design solution maybe, isn't as creative as it could have been, and vice versa. So, I think the clients come to us. Long story short, because of that, both. I hope, you know, they're coming to us because CannonDesign, they can really do a great student union and it's also gonna be really cool and the students are gonna love it. Right? That's what I'm hoping for. They're not just coming to us because we were talking about earlier, we know how to stack the legos, you know? You know, we're gonna arrange them in a way that's a little more creative and gives the university something a little more special than what they were expecting.

[00:19:31] Joe Walker: I think, you know, I've been through several projects with you and your team now, of course, and I'm looking back on those experiences and how influential they were because you're bringing that exact attitude towards every project, which is, you know what? We're going to learn who you are, learn what makes you tick, and be able to give you a product that is really reflecting who you are.

And so, the ways that you guys do that is, in my experience, less common. We've. Worked with lots of folks up and down the chain and all across the country, and that approach to getting information out of students, for example, like how you ask questions and being empathetic to, oh, what are your real needs?

What's a word that they give you back that actually sparks a new thought? And how does that process really evolve and fold into a design solution? 

[00:20:29] Roland Lemke: Well, again, I think that it's because we, again, hopefully we're not coming with any preconceptions, right? Yes, we wanna do a beautiful building, but we want it to be rooted in the mission and goals of the users.

So, I personally love grabbing those words and images from students, from faculty, from leadership administrators, and crafting that into the building, because I think that's much more interesting, and I think that we attract, and are successful with the clients that want that. Sadly, I wish every single client wanted that.

We have ran into circumstances where they don't, and then that's a little frustrating. They just want the regular old thing, and you're like okay. You know, you can do that, but it's a missed opportunity. 

[00:21:15] Joe Walker: Yeah. Well, what do those conversations look like? Do you ever push back and Yeah.

[00:21:20] Roland Lemke: Oh yeah. If you remember. On the Student Healthcare Center. We were trying to get them to think a little out of the box on how the provider's day went. Yeah. We still, I think we still get an amazing building out of it. 

[00:21:33] Roland Lemke: It has a huge story behind it and it's gonna be well, and it engages the site and it's gonna be beautiful. But Yeah. But as you remember, they were very much rooted in how they did things. 

[00:21:46] Joe Walker: Well, they knew what they knew to be true. Right? Yeah. And then this is how they were functioning. It actually stumbles back into one of the primary design concepts that you and I talked about very early, which was giving them some flexibility to change stuff down the road.

And designing around a module that could bend and flex if that thinking does change. Giving them a solution that allows that to happen is the result of asking all those questions and knowing we're going down this path today. Totally heard. That's what we need. That's what we're gonna do.

And we understand, but we don't wanna preclude things happening, in 10 or 15 years when there's a new approach to healthcare that may look totally different than what we know to be true today. And maybe we're not there yet, but giving them a facility that can adapt to that. You know, even while we were doing design with COVID.

You know, oh wait a minute. We needed to pivot a whole chunk of the building to be able to address some of those real time issues of folks having to use the facility in a different way that they couldn't accommodate in their current environment, right? So, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, like the fundamental approach to designing the building and heard, we're gonna give you this project and this is the way you're gonna use it and these are the zones that you've asked for, and this is how we can get that flow to work. But please be thinking about these other things as we're making some of these big decisions.

And then how we maybe reacted to that curve ball of COVID mid design. 

[00:23:25] Roland Lemke: Yeah. I think. Like you were saying, ultimately, if the client is saying no, we're not gonna change our protocols and the way we're thinking. If we can get to where we have the best of both worlds, like you were saying.

So, okay, so if you don't wanna change that, like you said, but if we organize the building and we get it on a grid and on a rhythm that allows your office space, exam space, you know, large rooms can flex in that way. I can arrange them this way because I've set up this rigor to the way I think that ultimately gave us that win-win, knowing that they could change it later.

So yeah, we were right. We'd just gotten started when, you know, COVID ramped up, and we created this kind of suite that, you know, would allow them for any kind of future thing. And one side of me when you were just asking that question as I was trying to think, I hope they never have to use it like that, right?

Where there's some sort of a, the next thing, and they have to be able to bring students in, keep them separated from the other students. I just hope that doesn't happen. But on a day-to-day basis, is that suite accessible? Right? Internally. It is on the first floor. You go down the hallway and you can get to there.

So again, I think we tried to make it where it would do both, right? You could have an outside and an inside access. So, you could say, okay. If you're feeling like this, you come in this outside door, you're not mingling in the building, but on a normal, you know, you weren't just seeing patients, right? It's just, you know, it's the week before spring break, blah, blah, blah.

We're all happy. They can just, they can access it from the inside, just like they're going to any of the exam rooms throughout the building. So again, I think it's again, trying to, you know, give them both, and again, thinking creatively about how you can do that. 

[00:25:02] Joe Walker: For sure. Yeah. Are there some projects that you're working on now that you're carrying that mindset forward and seeing things evolve a little bit in the result that you're getting?

[00:25:13] Roland Lemke: Yeah, right now we're, interestingly enough, it's just interesting how we're, you know, ebbs and flows in different directions. We're actually doing a fair amount of work with private, independent schools. We're actually working with three private independent boys’ schools, which is an interesting mindset in and of itself because, you know, it's all boys, right?

And it's The needs of, again, I think we've been talking a lot about, I'll use an example, we were trying to talk about the classrooms and how we make the classrooms more flexible so they could do active learning and break out into small groups, and the chairs would have wheels on it. And the administrators are like, oh no. No wheels on chairs. And we’re like, well, why not? And he goes, well, they're boys. And they just, they don't sit still. Right. And so, all they would be doing all class long is either spinning around in the chair, shuffling the chair back and forth, you know, and it's you know, and then, so yeah, they just want traditional, heavy furniture that doesn't move that well.

But then they also feel like, well, they're boys, they can pick it up, move it, if they really want to move the classroom around and do some group kind of project work or something like that. But yeah, we always try to take what we're learning and seeing and out there and educate the clients, but again, I think that's one we're probably not gonna win, right?

We're not gonna give you chairs on wheels. So, but we'll hopefully, we'll at least get them furniture that allows them to do their, the group project work and stuff that I think they do need. Because they're not doing a lot of that right now. And maybe because their furniture is big and bulky.

[00:26:39] Joe Walker: Yeah, so maybe you pick a floor finish that makes it easy to slide. 

[00:26:41] Roland Lemke: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:26:42] Joe Walker: Without getting marred up. Yeah. So, thinking about that. Well, if we back up just a little bit and look at our conversation today, and again, so excited about the mission to help organizations go bigger and better.

Like that just is such a cool driver. And then we think about how you've. Applied that to your internal culture of developing your folks. And giving them a freedom. But like you said, putting up the guardrail so they don't go driving off the side of the road. And really develop them as individuals so they can then apply that skillset and confidence to listen to your clients and get some really great results. So, thanks for sharing all that. 

[00:27:27] Roland Lemke: No. Again, that's what gets me excited, right? Now here. One other little story. So, I was actually really excited when I heard this and so was that client, this boys’ school in Cincinnati. My other partner and I had to leave the night after the first day.

And so, the team stayed to do five identical presentations the next day to the faculty, the staff, the students, and it was three women. And in a couple of the meetings, some of the women teachers stood up and said, this is so cool that there are three women giving this presentation and doing this work.

Right? And so, they sent me the note and they put in there, sorry Roland you weren't missed. And I'm like, you know, to hear that they, you know that you nailed it, that they appreciated it, and that the project is in good hands, and it was moving forward and that the client was happy. It's like that's the best thing you could have said to me. Right? 

[00:28:17] Joe Walker: Oh yeah. Yeah. 

[00:28:18] Roland Lemke: I think that's cool. And so that makes you feel real. I feel really proud when you hear things like that.

[00:28:24] Joe Walker: Absolutely. So all that work is starting to pay off. 

[00:28:26] Roland Lemke: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:28:28] Joe Walker: Nice 

[00:28:28] Roland Lemke: Letting people thrive. And that's another one of ours, letting people thrive. 

[00:28:31] Joe Walker: Yeah. Yeah. That, those are great mantras and good reminders that it's so easy to forget in the world that we're living in, that people have needs and sometimes you just gotta take a minute, back up, and listen. Yeah. And then, Oh, okay. Yeah, I can do that. Here you go. You know? Yeah. And have at it. And just a small gesture of putting someone else's needs and whatever drives them ahead of whatever the story is in your head, right? Is a really powerful move. So, thanks for developing a great team and being fun to work with. 

[00:29:08] Roland Lemke: Well, thanks for thanks for playing. So hopefully, you know, hopefully there'll be many more things in the future, so, oh yeah.

Like I said, and some hopefully whatever, 20 years from now when you and I are, whatever we're doing and not doing this and that, you know, that next generation is continuing that relationship. That would be the goal, right? 

[00:29:24] Joe Walker: Yeah. We can go on a field trip from office to office and say way back when. Remember when we did this? 

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